WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.140 First of all, Hafisa I'm just so happy that we're doing this. 00:00:04.484 --> 00:00:05.174 Me too. 00:00:05.204 --> 00:00:05.954 Thank you, Mark. 00:00:05.984 --> 00:00:06.734 I get your eye. 00:00:07.274 --> 00:00:07.514 Yeah. 00:00:08.554 --> 00:00:09.454 Or pace? 00:00:09.514 --> 00:00:10.744 Um, theater. 00:00:10.744 --> 00:00:13.354 Forgiveness is just like so amazing. 00:00:13.354 --> 00:00:15.634 And that's why you don't just have me. 00:00:15.634 --> 00:00:21.154 You also have Sariah Bordeaux here asking me, asking you some questions. 00:00:21.154 --> 00:00:23.464 And, but I get the first one if that's okay. 00:00:23.824 --> 00:00:26.674 Um, just for article clubbers, we've read your piece. 00:00:26.674 --> 00:00:28.084 We love your piece, but we. 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.439 Would love to give you a little space, just to talk about you a little bit 00:00:31.439 --> 00:00:33.119 to share a little bit about you. 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:37.079 So, um, could you introduce yourself just a little bit and sort of 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:41.119 just share a little bit about who you, it's a big old question Mark. 00:00:42.349 --> 00:00:47.749 Like, well, it all started in 1984, technically 1983, but 00:00:48.709 --> 00:00:49.729 let's not talk about that. 00:00:50.209 --> 00:00:53.779 Um, yeah, so I think, you know, I'm a writer and a poet. 00:00:53.839 --> 00:00:57.319 Um, you know, my poetry book came out in September. 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:02.279 Um, and then, you know, this is part of a larger non-fiction 00:01:02.279 --> 00:01:03.719 project that I've just finished up. 00:01:04.169 --> 00:01:09.959 Um, and you know, this was, you know, this was by a very first like nonfiction 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:13.229 essay that had really written, you know, um, because I was just kind of. 00:01:14.709 --> 00:01:19.559 You know, some for all the things I was trying to untangle, you know, 00:01:19.589 --> 00:01:21.809 poetry just didn't have enough space. 00:01:22.559 --> 00:01:26.729 Um, so, but I think that regardless of what genre I'm writing and you know, 00:01:26.969 --> 00:01:33.839 my I'm writing about and for black and African people, you know, and trying to, 00:01:34.049 --> 00:01:40.409 how do we understand, how do we understand the narrative of ourselves in this place? 00:01:41.309 --> 00:01:45.569 When the narrative that we've been like, that's been written over in, like the 00:01:45.569 --> 00:01:51.629 mass culture is one that's so dangerous, so toxic and so deeply untrue, you know? 00:01:52.049 --> 00:01:57.269 And so that's kind of like where, like my, I think my obsessions as a writer 00:01:57.269 --> 00:02:00.809 happened in like, and then I think you can tell by my writing that like, I'm. 00:02:01.164 --> 00:02:05.814 I'm very much into like invested in like understanding intimacy 00:02:05.874 --> 00:02:07.614 across different types, you know? 00:02:08.184 --> 00:02:11.004 And so that's just more about the piece, but. 00:02:11.594 --> 00:02:14.114 I was, I was born in Zaria, Nigeria. 00:02:14.144 --> 00:02:18.824 Um, like my mother was a nice, like, um, Muslim, Nigerian woman. 00:02:18.854 --> 00:02:22.634 And my father is a black American man who was born in like Alabama. 00:02:22.664 --> 00:02:27.614 And like, like, you know, George Wallace has Alabama like 1945 born in Jim Crow. 00:02:28.004 --> 00:02:33.904 Um, and they, my parents met at AU Heil university when my dad was. 00:02:34.274 --> 00:02:37.514 In grad school for his MFA and painting. 00:02:37.814 --> 00:02:41.444 Um, and my auntie Myro, uh, happened to be, she was an 00:02:41.504 --> 00:02:44.729 educator and, uh, In Nigeria. 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:48.779 And she was a visiting scholar at like Ohio university. 00:02:49.019 --> 00:02:52.589 And like, my mom had come to like help her take care of like her two younger kids. 00:02:52.859 --> 00:02:57.119 And like, my mother was walking up the stairwell, my father was walking 00:02:57.119 --> 00:03:00.479 down and they met, they went on two dates, then they got married, like, 00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:02.909 um, you know, sometimes it works. 00:03:03.269 --> 00:03:06.209 Um, and then like, uh, and then. 00:03:06.554 --> 00:03:09.344 They after they're married, they live in the States a little bit. 00:03:09.344 --> 00:03:13.304 Then my dad moved back to Nigeria with my mom or me and my sister were born. 00:03:13.574 --> 00:03:15.734 And then after that, like we moved to the States. 00:03:16.304 --> 00:03:17.954 Um, but other than like, I don't know. 00:03:17.954 --> 00:03:19.004 What do you want to know about me? 00:03:19.064 --> 00:03:22.424 It's like, What about you, Mark? 00:03:24.664 --> 00:03:25.784 This is about you. 00:03:25.784 --> 00:03:32.764 This is not about me, but yeah, I also, I also appreciate also how you talk about 00:03:32.764 --> 00:03:35.044 sort of maybe how this piece got started. 00:03:35.044 --> 00:03:36.454 Can you say more about that? 00:03:36.454 --> 00:03:41.104 The origination, how this piece of merged and also specifically 00:03:41.104 --> 00:03:42.874 who you're writing to and why. 00:03:44.009 --> 00:03:44.429 Yeah. 00:03:44.459 --> 00:03:46.679 Well, I mean, like, I don't think I had any clue who I was 00:03:46.679 --> 00:03:48.059 writing to when I started it. 00:03:48.059 --> 00:03:51.719 Like, you know, I li I, like, I was just, I was just like, you know, 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:53.369 I want to try writing nonfiction. 00:03:53.369 --> 00:03:56.744 I've been thinking, you know, I'd been literally like, Thinking about 00:03:56.744 --> 00:04:00.014 it for like years and then just mainly stayed afraid to do it. 00:04:00.254 --> 00:04:05.414 And then finally, like, um, through a friend of a friend, uh, this woman 00:04:05.414 --> 00:04:11.564 was teaching a, uh, writing nonfiction workshop in her apartment just for women. 00:04:11.564 --> 00:04:13.484 You know, I'm just like, it was a six week. 00:04:13.484 --> 00:04:14.744 I'm just like it was affordable. 00:04:14.744 --> 00:04:17.384 I can make this commitment and I'm just like, let me just try. 00:04:17.714 --> 00:04:18.554 And so. 00:04:18.909 --> 00:04:24.269 I, I, I really started in that group with those women, like the germ of the idea. 00:04:24.359 --> 00:04:29.369 And so, I mean, but it was like, I, I got that like, you know, 10 pages of 00:04:29.369 --> 00:04:36.739 it and, and that, but like really, I think what, around this time, as I was 00:04:36.739 --> 00:04:42.109 writing it, like my aunt's health was already slipping, like, um, and so. 00:04:42.809 --> 00:04:46.949 It was also trying to understand like the complication of like my father's 00:04:46.949 --> 00:04:54.299 guilt, because even it's like, Oh, black people and like their feelings, you know? 00:04:54.569 --> 00:04:58.859 And so him, even though he knows what happened to me was wrong. 00:04:58.859 --> 00:04:59.969 The inability. 00:05:00.309 --> 00:05:05.259 To say it, and it caused a lot of tension between us because like, I didn't 00:05:05.259 --> 00:05:09.069 really realize until I got into therapy myself and sort of unpacking other 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:11.469 things, how much that deeply like that. 00:05:11.469 --> 00:05:14.919 My relationship with my aunt Sarah deeply impacted me because like I 00:05:14.919 --> 00:05:18.704 was, you know, Any writer that turned that any child that turns into a 00:05:18.704 --> 00:05:20.624 writer is a sensitive child, you know? 00:05:20.894 --> 00:05:22.784 And like, my father is a visual artist. 00:05:22.814 --> 00:05:24.974 Um, he actually, he did the cover of this. 00:05:24.974 --> 00:05:27.554 So this is my mom for nine months pregnant with my sister. 00:05:28.004 --> 00:05:31.274 Um, I got the one we live in Nigeria. 00:05:31.304 --> 00:05:37.234 And so, and so, so let's say I lost my train of thought. 00:05:38.854 --> 00:05:43.294 Oh, that like, and so trying to really unpack like, like. 00:05:43.994 --> 00:05:47.684 Who, what does pain do and who does pain belong to? 00:05:47.984 --> 00:05:53.264 You know, because, you know, especially like being black, like pain is so 00:05:53.264 --> 00:05:58.244 communal, you know, and, and like, it didn't have communal pain and a 00:05:58.244 --> 00:06:02.384 country that refuses morning, you know, and also refuses black pain. 00:06:02.644 --> 00:06:06.164 It was like this idea of the toxic ness, because. 00:06:06.779 --> 00:06:10.049 Like my, just like, you know, my dad loves telling stories. 00:06:10.049 --> 00:06:17.009 And so I grew up with stories of what he, and like my Sarah and my aunt Liz escaped. 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:17.399 Right. 00:06:17.729 --> 00:06:21.989 And like, they, they escaped so much violence, not just like in the world, 00:06:22.019 --> 00:06:24.689 but like in their home and like poverty. 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:29.609 And to think that like, what, like, what does it mean that like the 00:06:29.609 --> 00:06:33.359 cruelty that like, that my aunt got. 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:39.439 In her life she gave to me and why, and you know, around, you know, 00:06:39.469 --> 00:06:44.029 the Charleston shooting, you know, I, I grew up and grew up in South. 00:06:44.059 --> 00:06:45.589 I came of age in South Carolina. 00:06:45.619 --> 00:06:47.119 I moved there when I was like 15. 00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:51.199 Um, and I went, I was there until I graduated from, from college, 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.339 from Clemson and like, uh, 2006. 00:06:55.729 --> 00:07:01.934 And, you know, you just noticed that like, Black people are always forgiving, 00:07:02.204 --> 00:07:07.784 always forgiving and just like watching Dylan roof be taken to a drive through 00:07:08.024 --> 00:07:13.244 and just like, and, but also just to think that like, I mean, most people, like when 00:07:13.244 --> 00:07:16.889 you think about how long time is like, If you ask someone to like, look in the 00:07:16.889 --> 00:07:20.629 yellow in the eye for like a minute, it's almost like it's almost so hard, but 00:07:20.629 --> 00:07:24.679 the thing that he sat there, the entire prayer service, you know what I mean? 00:07:25.009 --> 00:07:31.429 And like, and then, and then did what he did and then this, and then when I 00:07:31.429 --> 00:07:35.869 just like, started, like, you know, then all the articles started coming out. 00:07:36.109 --> 00:07:42.029 And then just thinking about like, The family literally forgiving him in the 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:48.299 courts that locks us up, you know, I mean, it's like, What does that mean? 00:07:48.299 --> 00:07:54.329 You know, I think it's, I think like, uh, America loves convincing us that 00:07:54.329 --> 00:07:58.889 we should be mad at black people for what this country has done to us. 00:07:59.189 --> 00:08:03.479 And I'm just like forgiveness, like where does this forgiveness STEM from? 00:08:03.479 --> 00:08:07.439 And then, you know, like, um, so w w like one of the things, like one of the 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:14.384 chapters in my book is, um, Is like a T it was like talking about like the 00:08:14.384 --> 00:08:19.384 evolution of like the blues from spirit, from spirituals and, you know, like the, 00:08:19.384 --> 00:08:22.604 the blues evolved after emancipation. 00:08:22.604 --> 00:08:22.934 Right. 00:08:22.964 --> 00:08:25.034 It's essentially the child, the child of the spirituals. 00:08:25.244 --> 00:08:28.334 Because if you think about it, like, um, cause it, it happened 00:08:28.334 --> 00:08:29.444 like shortly after free. 00:08:29.444 --> 00:08:30.194 I mean, it's a patient. 00:08:30.194 --> 00:08:33.174 So if you think about like, No white slave master wanted 00:08:33.174 --> 00:08:34.584 their cruelty saying at them. 00:08:34.674 --> 00:08:38.304 So you had to code them, you know, and then like you were allowed no rage 00:08:38.304 --> 00:08:42.204 that like that, like your rage could be deadly, you know, and thinking about 00:08:42.204 --> 00:08:47.034 like what that does to you and just thinking about like what poverty, what 00:08:47.034 --> 00:08:52.224 cruelty does too, when you're literally against the law to give it to anybody, 00:08:52.374 --> 00:08:58.284 but yourself or your, the people around you, you know, and like, and, and like, 00:08:58.739 --> 00:09:03.299 And I, you know, I just, I tend to be just like, I'm someone who's like always 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:05.309 searching for origin points of things. 00:09:05.609 --> 00:09:09.749 And so I wanted to know like, Where did that forgiveness STEM from like, 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:13.979 yes, we are like black people are incredibly forgiving people, but 00:09:13.979 --> 00:09:16.379 it's not just, it's not just that. 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:17.129 We're awesome. 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:17.759 You know what I mean? 00:09:18.089 --> 00:09:23.069 It's that like, it's that like, you know, and this idea of epigenetics, right? 00:09:23.699 --> 00:09:27.179 Cause it could also send from like, uh, years ago I was listening 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:30.629 to this, um, you know, on being with Krista Tippett, the podcast. 00:09:30.989 --> 00:09:34.019 Um, it's really good if you guys haven't checked it out, but she was, she did 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:40.759 this, um, This episode on epigenetics and they like this woman, I forget her 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:44.104 name, but this researcher, she had went to the, I think, a small town in New 00:09:44.104 --> 00:09:46.009 Jersey to research Holocaust survivors. 00:09:46.009 --> 00:09:49.879 It's like, it's this town that had like the highest concentration of Holocaust. 00:09:50.064 --> 00:09:53.154 Uh, survivors and what they, and they wanted to set up study 00:09:53.154 --> 00:09:55.824 the effect of trauma on the body of those of those memories. 00:09:56.124 --> 00:09:59.604 And what they found was they ended up studying the children because they 00:09:59.604 --> 00:10:03.954 found that the people that showed the most over like impact of the trauma 00:10:03.984 --> 00:10:05.724 was the children of the survivors. 00:10:05.724 --> 00:10:09.994 You know, and this idea that like, um, And it rings true because when you, when, 00:10:10.174 --> 00:10:13.254 when people who are children, Holocaust survivors, when you ask them who they are, 00:10:13.284 --> 00:10:14.724 they would have answered this question. 00:10:14.814 --> 00:10:16.464 I'm a child of a Holocaust survivor. 00:10:16.464 --> 00:10:16.854 Right. 00:10:17.064 --> 00:10:19.644 You know, this in like in the pressure of just being like, I 00:10:19.644 --> 00:10:22.074 lived for you now go be my ambition. 00:10:22.314 --> 00:10:25.764 And then she also talks about like, um, how they also were studying like 00:10:25.764 --> 00:10:27.444 women who were pregnant during nine 11. 00:10:27.444 --> 00:10:30.594 And it changed the stress chains, the chemistry in their body, you know, 00:10:30.984 --> 00:10:35.654 and just thinking about like, Then what, what has epigenetics done to us? 00:10:35.684 --> 00:10:37.574 You know, what has it gotten into us? 00:10:37.574 --> 00:10:43.424 And it's like, and this, this like that, like, uh, when you're because to be 00:10:43.424 --> 00:10:45.404 black, you're constantly on the stage. 00:10:45.404 --> 00:10:45.734 Right. 00:10:45.794 --> 00:10:49.634 Of like of constantly having to perform a certain type of 00:10:49.634 --> 00:10:51.254 like accessibility to be safe. 00:10:51.254 --> 00:10:54.044 And even then, like, you can't even birdwatch, you know? 00:10:54.374 --> 00:10:57.134 Um, so you're always in this performance and so. 00:10:57.614 --> 00:11:01.544 But like, what do you do when, like, how do you get back to, how 00:11:01.544 --> 00:11:03.974 do you find your life again, when you've essentially lived in the 00:11:03.974 --> 00:11:06.704 performance the entire time, you know? 00:11:06.764 --> 00:11:13.454 And so like, I knew I'd spent so long, just kind of being so like 00:11:13.834 --> 00:11:17.104 angry, like anger isn't even the right word for what I felt for my eyes. 00:11:17.134 --> 00:11:20.404 I didn't even, I still even don't know how to cause mixed up with 00:11:20.414 --> 00:11:25.504 so much with like anger, shame, like sadness and like confusion. 00:11:25.974 --> 00:11:29.544 But like, when I was just like, thinking that like, you know, at this point in 00:11:29.544 --> 00:11:36.384 my life, I'm old enough where I have to forgive her and like, or, or, or at least 00:11:36.414 --> 00:11:41.514 make amends with it, you know, I don't like, um, Sarah and I like never got to 00:11:41.514 --> 00:11:46.134 the point of a rule, like friends, you know, but like I knew that, like that, 00:11:46.134 --> 00:11:51.199 like, I had to find some type of peace because it wasn't that like, I really 00:11:51.199 --> 00:11:54.779 that my anger towards the situation, wasn't it wasn't that I was just keeping 00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:59.009 that in, you know, like that was also going someplace, going places too. 00:11:59.009 --> 00:12:05.939 And so I'm also repeating this pattern and that to forgive her, like meant 00:12:06.239 --> 00:12:11.369 that I really had to understand her, you know, and I think that like, 00:12:11.369 --> 00:12:13.199 you know, white America is the only. 00:12:13.544 --> 00:12:15.854 Group that gets to live in memoir alone. 00:12:15.854 --> 00:12:18.914 You know, black people, we live in history, we live in policy, 00:12:18.944 --> 00:12:21.614 like, you know, like we live in all the genres, you know? 00:12:21.614 --> 00:12:25.874 And so like, how do you understand the, like, like the multifaceted 00:12:25.874 --> 00:12:31.829 genres of life and, and then, you know, Then I kind of started thinking that 00:12:31.829 --> 00:12:36.509 like, okay, if we are trained to give forgiveness away to white people, what 00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:38.759 happens if we save it for ourselves? 00:12:38.789 --> 00:12:42.839 And I think, you know, so much of what I was wrote in there. 00:12:42.839 --> 00:12:46.649 I literally just like figured out as I went along, you know? 00:12:46.979 --> 00:12:50.819 And you know, there's something about like, when, like, when. 00:12:51.329 --> 00:12:55.409 About your, it's hard to hold on your, to your anger when you're bullied is, has 00:12:55.409 --> 00:12:59.609 just so physically weak, you know, and it's just like at the end, you know, and 00:12:59.609 --> 00:13:04.679 then like, and then she, there were so many people that she loved and was kind 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:09.389 to, you know, and like my uncle, Roger was one of the sweetest men I like ever knew. 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:12.239 And the fact that like their marriage always just like, I was 00:13:12.239 --> 00:13:14.354 just like, You know what I mean? 00:13:14.624 --> 00:13:20.054 And so the fact that like all her rage had nowhere to go, but me and like, 00:13:20.084 --> 00:13:25.364 as an adult, now I can realize how lonely that must have been for her. 00:13:25.424 --> 00:13:26.294 You know what I mean? 00:13:26.474 --> 00:13:29.594 Because like, I was just a receptacle for everything she did. 00:13:29.654 --> 00:13:29.714 Yeah. 00:13:29.764 --> 00:13:30.184 Yeah. 00:13:33.724 --> 00:13:34.144 Thank you. 00:13:34.204 --> 00:13:34.744 Wow. 00:13:35.344 --> 00:13:39.994 That was just like, there's a, I mean, kind of. 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.119 I feel like you kind of answered a lot of the questions that I was having 00:13:45.119 --> 00:13:47.369 in my mind, kind of speaking to like. 00:13:49.079 --> 00:13:51.779 The loneliness that somebody might feel like, what do we 00:13:51.779 --> 00:13:53.729 owe, like in forgiveness truly? 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.419 Like, what do we, if we do say forgiveness for ourselves, like 00:13:57.869 --> 00:14:01.289 what kind of conversations does that mean for our like dinner times? 00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:04.619 Like what kind of conversations that, um, and one of the things that I wrote 00:14:04.619 --> 00:14:09.359 down as I was reading your piece, it just has to do with, with that kind of thing. 00:14:09.359 --> 00:14:11.909 Like, um, what does it mean? 00:14:12.089 --> 00:14:12.779 What does it mean? 00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:16.619 If we, with our whole lives giving our best to white people. 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:22.079 And having to deal with like our traumas at home when we're so, so fed up. 00:14:22.079 --> 00:14:26.939 And so this, and so that, so in educational spaces and workspaces and all 00:14:26.939 --> 00:14:30.989 these different places where, you know, we're expected to do not only to perform, 00:14:30.989 --> 00:14:35.699 not only forgiveness, but to perform like, like to perform, even being able 00:14:35.699 --> 00:14:40.499 to stand certain people, like even being able to agree with, you know, for fear of 00:14:40.499 --> 00:14:42.299 losing your job or for fear of whatever. 00:14:42.599 --> 00:14:46.619 Um, not being able to air your personal grievances without being, 00:14:46.829 --> 00:14:51.359 um, called aggressive or, you know, playing the race card or whatever. 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:55.559 Um, like what does that mean when all of your energy is expanded to 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.129 people who don't respect you, then you try to go home to two places 00:14:59.129 --> 00:15:04.229 where you are so-called loves, but the love relationship is so complex. 00:15:04.229 --> 00:15:08.489 Now that we've passed on trauma too, you know, and we have to now blend. 00:15:08.894 --> 00:15:10.214 Those things together. 00:15:10.334 --> 00:15:15.584 Um, yeah, because like, you know, Hortense, Spillers talks about like, 00:15:15.614 --> 00:15:19.904 you know, the, or like, like she's a black scholar, who's like brilliant. 00:15:19.904 --> 00:15:23.114 And she talks about like, you know, the origin of intimacy in this country. 00:15:23.114 --> 00:15:23.474 Right. 00:15:23.684 --> 00:15:27.134 And so intimacy was based like the. 00:15:27.289 --> 00:15:32.059 First like relationships of colonization or like, Oh, white slave master and 00:15:32.059 --> 00:15:36.889 his wife who is jealous of the enslaved woman and like all this cruelty. 00:15:36.889 --> 00:15:42.019 So, you know, has, is, is there ever been a good intimacy in this country? 00:15:42.229 --> 00:15:46.639 And so all intimacy is based off of like, like that relationship, right? 00:15:46.669 --> 00:15:50.509 Like all the idea of like what partnership is like, and you can see that with 00:15:50.509 --> 00:15:54.549 like, you know, like some of the, the, the toxic masculinity that can. 00:15:55.124 --> 00:15:58.064 Oh, black men, you know, like yeah. 00:15:58.174 --> 00:15:59.674 In way then it's deadly. 00:15:59.704 --> 00:16:04.804 Like if we're not able to make the image or, you know, if we're not able to perform 00:16:04.804 --> 00:16:09.124 to the archetype, you know, then our behavior is, are quite possibly deadly. 00:16:09.124 --> 00:16:13.234 And one of the questions that I have, um, kind of has to do with like, you 00:16:13.234 --> 00:16:16.594 know, now that we are in, I mean, not now that like this, all of the 00:16:16.594 --> 00:16:17.794 things that we're dealing with are. 00:16:18.004 --> 00:16:21.784 Are cyclical and have shown themselves in iteration in history now. 00:16:21.964 --> 00:16:26.464 But I'm wondering like specifically, like how do we, how do we center ourselves? 00:16:26.644 --> 00:16:29.494 How do we fortify like ourselves? 00:16:29.494 --> 00:16:33.784 And I kind of wanted to ask you this, like as an extension to what you had written. 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.969 Two years ago, like, you know, what, what new things have you gleaned? 00:16:37.969 --> 00:16:39.169 Like, you know, like what new? 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:40.729 Yeah, for sure. 00:16:40.819 --> 00:16:44.659 Especially when, considering like, even in, even like we know in the election 00:16:44.659 --> 00:16:46.069 right now, like yes, that's cool. 00:16:46.069 --> 00:16:50.389 And there's all this other function all of a sudden, like when do we get to be happy? 00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:51.229 Like period. 00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:52.729 Like when do we happy? 00:16:52.729 --> 00:16:53.899 Like with no caveat. 00:16:54.209 --> 00:16:55.829 You know, like get to deal. 00:16:55.829 --> 00:17:00.479 Well, you know, I would argue that like black happiness is 00:17:00.479 --> 00:17:01.739 what makes us so dangerous. 00:17:01.739 --> 00:17:04.589 Cause like I was joking to people like you go to a park, right. 00:17:04.769 --> 00:17:08.849 And like, like as a park, they're just like, I can't see Sierra going on. 00:17:08.849 --> 00:17:11.459 There was a tyrant party right next to a birthday party and just like. 00:17:11.659 --> 00:17:15.799 Like black people and like, like Latinex people, people of like, uh, of color 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:20.269 from like are hanging out with each other across generations and being loud as fuck. 00:17:20.269 --> 00:17:20.689 Right. 00:17:20.959 --> 00:17:22.789 But then you look over and see white people. 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.999 They're all around the same age group and they're all, you can barely hear them. 00:17:25.999 --> 00:17:26.209 Right. 00:17:26.209 --> 00:17:27.499 I'm just like, where is that joy? 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:32.599 And the thing is like, they call the cops on ours, you know, because like, Cause 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:37.799 my dad like to say it's because like, they cannot fathom how we could be happy. 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.279 Like given all they deny they've done to us, but they know they've 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.989 done, but to have as much basically. 00:17:45.169 --> 00:17:45.829 Yeah. 00:17:45.979 --> 00:17:49.519 And especially in a country three, you know, that is based 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:50.959 off of racial capitalism. 00:17:50.959 --> 00:17:51.349 Right? 00:17:51.529 --> 00:17:54.619 So like, you know, when you think about like any type of marginalized 00:17:54.649 --> 00:17:58.309 group, black people, indigenous people, disabled people, like. 00:17:58.554 --> 00:18:02.124 We have been forced to live on the outskirts of capitalism. 00:18:02.124 --> 00:18:02.484 Right. 00:18:02.694 --> 00:18:05.364 And this country needs us, especially right now. 00:18:05.364 --> 00:18:09.654 Like we have, like, it needs us to believe that capitalism is the only 00:18:09.654 --> 00:18:12.324 way and our existence keeps proving. 00:18:12.324 --> 00:18:13.614 There's another alternative. 00:18:13.614 --> 00:18:14.004 Right. 00:18:14.154 --> 00:18:16.284 And so that makes us so dangerous. 00:18:16.524 --> 00:18:18.954 But in terms of, I think of like, like what I've learned, 00:18:18.954 --> 00:18:22.344 you know, Over how this piece has stayed with me through the years. 00:18:22.584 --> 00:18:26.154 I think, especially like right now, I think this idea of forgiving 00:18:26.334 --> 00:18:32.124 whiteness over and over again, that's a cage that's prison, but for, but 00:18:32.124 --> 00:18:35.484 like bringing for goodness home to the community, that's abolition, 00:18:35.604 --> 00:18:37.314 abolition work, you know what I mean? 00:18:37.704 --> 00:18:40.764 And I think that like, you know, with the conversation that's happened around 00:18:40.764 --> 00:18:44.394 like, you know, defunding the cops, abolishing prisons, but just like. 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:49.289 Abolishing a carceral system that is literally just a key element to 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:52.679 racial capitalism, like into do that. 00:18:52.889 --> 00:18:58.289 Like we have to understand our rage and like an, and like understand that 00:18:58.289 --> 00:19:00.599 like rage is beautiful and powerful. 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:05.729 Cause rage is often like your, your body telling you, you have a line, you 00:19:05.729 --> 00:19:07.799 know, and that like, it has to be drawn. 00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:08.129 Hold on. 00:19:08.129 --> 00:19:09.419 My, all my platelets are going off. 00:19:09.419 --> 00:19:09.899 One second. 00:19:09.899 --> 00:19:10.259 Sorry. 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:12.049 Yeah. 00:19:15.719 --> 00:19:16.229 Yeah. 00:19:16.349 --> 00:19:22.699 Um, yeah, so I, yeah, I think that like really understanding, cause 00:19:22.699 --> 00:19:27.169 it's like, you know, the ability to hold to forgive I things is as 00:19:27.169 --> 00:19:29.779 important is an ability to hold rage. 00:19:29.809 --> 00:19:33.349 I mean, like if someone hurts your child in a deep way, you wouldn't 00:19:33.349 --> 00:19:34.939 be like, yeah, forgive them. 00:19:35.419 --> 00:19:35.689 Why? 00:19:35.689 --> 00:19:38.599 Because they haven't done anything to say, they're not going to hurt you again. 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:39.259 You know what I mean? 00:19:40.484 --> 00:19:46.214 I, I, that is something that is something to, um, that I was writing 00:19:46.214 --> 00:19:49.484 down kind of was circling back in all of the notes that I took. 00:19:49.484 --> 00:19:51.134 I remember you said that something. 00:19:51.629 --> 00:19:56.729 That, um, rages rooting, like it's grounded grounding, and there's 00:19:56.729 --> 00:19:58.019 some, something about that. 00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:02.699 That is so it's not only, it's not only like beautiful, but 00:20:02.699 --> 00:20:04.379 it's like sustainable, right? 00:20:04.379 --> 00:20:08.129 Like if we're going to get this like generational trauma, like we're gonna 00:20:08.189 --> 00:20:10.379 also get passed on this understanding. 00:20:10.649 --> 00:20:15.359 Um, hopefully in the coming generations that we don't necessarily have to 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:17.219 forgive for that, for that rate. 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.769 Um, one thing I thought was so interesting. 00:20:20.309 --> 00:20:24.629 Um, in connection was how you know, harm is perpetrated. 00:20:24.629 --> 00:20:28.979 And then folks who caused the harm are able to say like what the healing is. 00:20:29.249 --> 00:20:34.409 Um, and I feel like that's, that's part of, part of the reason that like white 00:20:34.409 --> 00:20:38.279 people need this theater because they're like, we need to upkeep this image that 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.749 America is this place where, where people, where people get to do what they want 00:20:42.749 --> 00:20:45.509 to do, the only way that that works. 00:20:45.569 --> 00:20:49.079 And the only way that capitalism works is to say like, no, no, like. 00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:52.289 You know, like this was necessary to get where we are. 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:54.869 Like, you have to be, you're a part of this story too, but 00:20:54.869 --> 00:20:56.699 only in, in this certain way. 00:20:56.699 --> 00:21:01.499 So I really appreciate, like, not only how, not only how your story deviated, but 00:21:01.499 --> 00:21:03.569 how you hinted to that, your dad's story. 00:21:03.569 --> 00:21:07.769 Also deviated, how he held on to rage, like how he was not quick to forgive. 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:10.229 Um, but I think oftentimes. 00:21:10.769 --> 00:21:14.699 Like the ability to forgive it's it's passed down community. 00:21:14.729 --> 00:21:19.139 But the example in our homes is, is also it's either divergent or 00:21:19.169 --> 00:21:21.179 it converges with that mainstream. 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.609 Um, yeah. 00:21:23.639 --> 00:21:27.029 In addition to speaking to a little bit more to like, how, how can we 00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:28.739 center ourselves in our own rage? 00:21:28.769 --> 00:21:33.029 Like, can you, can you talk about like, Maybe the, maybe like what's 00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:37.769 happening in mainstream versus what's happening in like familial circles 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:39.149 as it, as it comes to forgiveness. 00:21:39.149 --> 00:21:41.819 Do you see, do you see a divergence in the message? 00:21:42.199 --> 00:21:42.619 I know. 00:21:42.879 --> 00:21:50.389 I mean, I mean, I think w w w like, I, I feel like white people through Trump have, 00:21:50.419 --> 00:21:53.959 are not even pretending they care anymore. 00:21:53.959 --> 00:21:54.559 You know what I mean? 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:55.429 White America. 00:21:55.969 --> 00:22:01.724 And I think that like, That, you know, my father spent his whole life 00:22:01.754 --> 00:22:04.874 being raised by a woman who couldn't protect, you know what I mean? 00:22:04.904 --> 00:22:11.024 And I think that, I think that, like, my father also witnessed, 00:22:11.024 --> 00:22:12.794 like, you know, I feel like if. 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.159 A group of people that deserve their raise more than anybody as black woman. 00:22:17.159 --> 00:22:22.049 And we are so consistently denied it, you know, like, you know, 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.659 we are abused in so many ways. 00:22:24.659 --> 00:22:29.279 We were set up to not be believable, we're assaulted and then they kill 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.109 our children and then they kill us. 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:31.949 You know what I mean? 00:22:31.949 --> 00:22:37.139 Like we literally, whether a way, you know, um, and so I think I 00:22:37.139 --> 00:22:41.414 really, I really appreciate like the way, like, You know, I think 00:22:41.414 --> 00:22:43.754 it's, you know, the fact of having. 00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:47.879 Parents who were raised by two very different forms of colonization. 00:22:47.879 --> 00:22:50.789 Like my mother's country did not get free, the British, like 00:22:50.789 --> 00:22:52.859 what, 1963 or four, you know? 00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:59.009 And so like, like why, while my father grew up in like the shadow of 00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:02.519 colonialism, my mother grew up under the thumb of it, you know what I mean? 00:23:02.729 --> 00:23:05.759 Like she was still feeling the fingerprint of it. 00:23:06.209 --> 00:23:09.239 Um, and so I think. 00:23:09.564 --> 00:23:13.154 For them, like everywhere they went, they saw the whole, um, you 00:23:13.154 --> 00:23:19.274 know, and, but like, but also they lived most of their lives in black 00:23:19.274 --> 00:23:20.714 communities and African communities. 00:23:20.714 --> 00:23:21.014 Right. 00:23:21.194 --> 00:23:25.214 So they, so for them, they knew that there was a completely different way. 00:23:25.214 --> 00:23:25.604 Right. 00:23:25.724 --> 00:23:28.544 So that meant that rage didn't have to be all they had. 00:23:28.874 --> 00:23:29.324 Right. 00:23:29.534 --> 00:23:33.494 Um, and so I think that's the key that there is some that like, that, like 00:23:33.494 --> 00:23:37.479 this idea that like, That the rage could disor you is just so confusing. 00:23:38.709 --> 00:23:39.369 You know what I mean? 00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:43.019 Because just like, there is like, you know, when you get around just like 00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:45.719 other black people, you get to just talk about how fucked up shit is. 00:23:45.929 --> 00:23:46.079 Yeah. 00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:49.619 It is like, you know what I mean? 00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:49.829 Yeah. 00:23:50.129 --> 00:23:53.399 Your rage is as a black person in this country, especially as a black woman, your 00:23:53.399 --> 00:23:58.559 rage is the like, is your touchpoint to reality all of this cognitive dissonance 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.159 and all of the eyes, you know, that's like, I feel like that's also why. 00:24:02.594 --> 00:24:05.024 People of color black people especially were able to hold on 00:24:05.024 --> 00:24:10.034 right now because this country has always been like a fun house mirror. 00:24:10.034 --> 00:24:10.724 You know what I mean? 00:24:11.024 --> 00:24:16.724 And so like, we can see the ridiculousness and like, and then touch reality because 00:24:16.724 --> 00:24:18.224 we've, we've always been living in it. 00:24:18.224 --> 00:24:18.854 You know what I mean? 00:24:19.124 --> 00:24:21.824 Because patriotism is the most confusing thing to me. 00:24:22.304 --> 00:24:23.024 You know what I mean? 00:24:23.144 --> 00:24:25.364 I'm just like, I was like, have you been outside? 00:24:25.394 --> 00:24:29.414 Like, it's just like so confusing to me, you know, people join the military, 00:24:29.414 --> 00:24:30.434 not because they love this country. 00:24:30.434 --> 00:24:32.444 Most of them joined it because they can't pay for college. 00:24:32.454 --> 00:24:33.014 You know what I mean? 00:24:33.224 --> 00:24:33.824 People don't love it. 00:24:33.854 --> 00:24:34.484 Like, you know what I mean? 00:24:34.724 --> 00:24:40.274 And it's just like this idea of like, what would I have to be to love this country, 00:24:40.304 --> 00:24:41.744 considering what this country does? 00:24:41.954 --> 00:24:42.554 You know what I mean? 00:24:42.554 --> 00:24:45.494 I don't want to be that person, you know? 00:24:46.184 --> 00:24:51.074 And so in terms of, yeah, I mean, it's just like, what we're seeing now is just. 00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:56.849 It's just like we are inside of white America suicide mission. 00:24:57.059 --> 00:25:03.189 Because, because like, you know, if you think about like, um, the 12 stages of 00:25:03.209 --> 00:25:09.689 grief for how many there are, we know the dangerous ones, you know, and America has 00:25:09.689 --> 00:25:12.839 been stuck in the stage of like denial. 00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:20.159 And anger, you know, because the fact that there hasn't been deep collective mourning 00:25:20.189 --> 00:25:24.149 in this country over everything it's done over 400 years have been slim with the 00:25:24.149 --> 00:25:28.589 fact that there hasn't been collective mourning and commemoration to that. 00:25:28.979 --> 00:25:30.659 I mean that it tells you just like. 00:25:30.904 --> 00:25:33.064 It's like, all that's left is destruction. 00:25:33.094 --> 00:25:33.874 You know what I mean? 00:25:34.204 --> 00:25:38.614 Um, and so like, they can't even, because white America has never 00:25:38.614 --> 00:25:40.054 gotten to the other side of that. 00:25:40.234 --> 00:25:43.054 They don't understand that there is another side, you know, 00:25:43.234 --> 00:25:45.024 that like, it's just like that. 00:25:45.024 --> 00:25:47.704 Like they just think of like, the earth is flat and they fall off on the other side. 00:25:47.704 --> 00:25:48.304 You know what I mean? 00:25:48.664 --> 00:25:51.064 Like, but there's like, there's other things to be done. 00:25:51.184 --> 00:25:52.204 Like once you. 00:25:52.384 --> 00:25:57.154 Once you face history, you know, and like facing history is actually the only cure 00:25:57.154 --> 00:25:59.644 to the wound of, you know what I mean? 00:26:00.064 --> 00:26:04.244 And so I think that that's like, What we're in now is just like, I don't know. 00:26:04.274 --> 00:26:07.394 It's just like, it's the height of forest, you know, like they're, 00:26:07.834 --> 00:26:09.194 they're protesting a virus. 00:26:09.224 --> 00:26:12.494 It's just like, it's like, if I took a picket sign out to hydrogen, I said, 00:26:12.494 --> 00:26:17.504 no more, you know, it's just like the moment she's like, what are you doing? 00:26:18.014 --> 00:26:19.034 How does that work? 00:26:19.274 --> 00:26:20.864 Are you going to chase COVID out of town? 00:26:20.864 --> 00:26:22.934 Because if you wanted to do that, you would have stayed home. 00:26:23.174 --> 00:26:23.894 You know what I mean? 00:26:23.984 --> 00:26:27.974 Like, and so I think that like, you know, like, like I joke with 00:26:28.394 --> 00:26:31.124 my friend who was like, Do why people care about their children? 00:26:31.184 --> 00:26:34.034 You know, they won't say them from guns, from politicians. 00:26:34.574 --> 00:26:38.504 I've never, I didn't grow up with any like kids who ever had curfews. 00:26:38.504 --> 00:26:39.134 You know what I mean? 00:26:39.434 --> 00:26:43.004 And like my parents found that like, idea of children out at night, ridiculous. 00:26:43.034 --> 00:26:43.934 You know what I mean? 00:26:44.204 --> 00:26:48.274 Like kind of is, you know, like a 16 year old. 00:26:49.534 --> 00:26:53.764 I really appreciate how that like speaks to the kind of idea, like the idea of. 00:26:54.109 --> 00:26:55.819 Convergent and divergent ideas. 00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:59.359 Like the fact that black folks have continuously had to deal with 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:03.379 some divergent shit in order to literally in order to survive. 00:27:03.409 --> 00:27:07.279 Like, no, you have to have a counter narrative, you know, like you had 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.589 to find a way to send to yourself when you don't, you know, who you 00:27:11.589 --> 00:27:13.509 end up being people like ice cube. 00:27:13.539 --> 00:27:17.679 Well, and I watched, I watched law and order SVU, but I'm not even gonna 00:27:17.689 --> 00:27:19.449 lie and say, Oh, that's ice tea. 00:27:19.694 --> 00:27:22.874 Oh, no, you leave it alone. 00:27:23.114 --> 00:27:26.144 I see is just doing his bidding on TV. 00:27:26.144 --> 00:27:28.034 And he said he was crazy too. 00:27:28.064 --> 00:27:28.844 Oh my gosh. 00:27:28.844 --> 00:27:30.974 See, I got the ISIS like mixed up for a second. 00:27:30.974 --> 00:27:31.574 I got right. 00:27:31.574 --> 00:27:32.144 I know. 00:27:32.144 --> 00:27:35.144 And see, that's another thing ice cube was messing up, man. 00:27:35.144 --> 00:27:36.014 Like we're good. 00:27:36.014 --> 00:27:36.734 Was I see. 00:27:38.424 --> 00:27:43.524 Wait a minute, but like, you know, you see all the things about how many 00:27:43.524 --> 00:27:48.654 toxic, like how many, like, like black men who are just like at the height 00:27:48.654 --> 00:27:50.754 of capitalism are embracing this. 00:27:51.414 --> 00:27:54.269 And that's the thing is like, That's the thing it's like, okay. 00:27:54.269 --> 00:27:57.539 Instead of being able to go to, to ice cube and be like, look, 00:27:57.539 --> 00:28:00.779 bruh, like I have to deal with white lady in the office every day. 00:28:01.309 --> 00:28:02.549 That's where my energy goes. 00:28:02.549 --> 00:28:07.159 You know, that's part about quarantine though, microaggressions 00:28:08.059 --> 00:28:11.029 way down, way down, down. 00:28:11.029 --> 00:28:14.419 Cause you can cut it's on, it's on record the meeting Suzy, 00:28:14.449 --> 00:28:16.909 like, but I really like it. 00:28:16.939 --> 00:28:20.509 Oh, not like daily stuff, you know that I really appreciate 00:28:20.509 --> 00:28:21.849 what you said like about. 00:28:22.009 --> 00:28:25.849 Kind of, cause it made me think of how it's not just forgiveness that we have 00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:29.779 to perform and how like kind of bringing it back to the, to the forgiveness piece. 00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:34.969 Like all of those different ways that we've learned to kind of like swallow, 00:28:35.959 --> 00:28:40.009 like what we're really dealing with in order to, to keep ourselves valid, not 00:28:40.009 --> 00:28:44.599 only like valid and like seen and able to get up, but like literally safe. 00:28:45.074 --> 00:28:48.674 Um, like out of performing that goes on, on the daily basis, it's 00:28:48.674 --> 00:28:51.764 something, you know, it's been spoken about for years, you know, wearing 00:28:51.764 --> 00:28:55.874 a mask, double consciousness and things like this, but I just really 00:28:55.874 --> 00:28:59.174 respect, you know, the way that. 00:28:59.909 --> 00:29:03.839 Even the feet, like even the title theater of forgiveness, I was like, what? 00:29:03.899 --> 00:29:05.759 Like I was, I was like, hold on here. 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.009 Like, where do you go? 00:29:08.009 --> 00:29:09.329 I was like, this is not a cane. 00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:10.019 Like forgiveness. 00:29:11.309 --> 00:29:11.909 You have all these. 00:29:11.909 --> 00:29:13.049 They want us to think it is. 00:29:13.289 --> 00:29:14.219 But that's the thing. 00:29:14.219 --> 00:29:17.939 You have all these people who are like, Oh no, like you got to center yourselves. 00:29:17.939 --> 00:29:18.419 Good vibes. 00:29:18.419 --> 00:29:19.259 Only, blah, blah, blah. 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:22.139 It's like, no, like, can you tell the cops to have good vibes on me? 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:25.019 Like, could you talk the legal system to have good vibes on me? 00:29:25.289 --> 00:29:25.649 Like. 00:29:25.939 --> 00:29:30.799 Could you give, could you give fucking rush Limbaugh, uh, uh, uh, 00:29:30.859 --> 00:29:32.719 you know, tutorial and forgiveness. 00:29:32.749 --> 00:29:38.059 Like if, if we're expected to perform this, sorry that I, you know, low 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:43.579 eye-contact this, this Mo um, I really appreciated how, in the end of your 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:47.269 end, the end of the article, it started talking about untraceable lions and it 00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:51.499 started talking about, you know, even ways that you wouldn't in a lot of com 00:29:51.529 --> 00:29:53.599 complex with a lot of complex work. 00:29:54.029 --> 00:29:55.469 Kind of integrate your aunt. 00:29:55.469 --> 00:29:59.639 Sarah's like lessons for later, you know, um, and kind of live with those. 00:29:59.639 --> 00:30:01.919 And so like there's no real question here. 00:30:03.889 --> 00:30:07.399 I don't know, like, yeah, I think that there's like with black 00:30:07.399 --> 00:30:10.639 people, there's always something to learn and just like, she just drew 00:30:10.639 --> 00:30:12.559 her line in the wrong direction. 00:30:12.889 --> 00:30:13.459 You know what I mean? 00:30:13.699 --> 00:30:19.999 Because like, because like also, I mean, like I'm like the first me 00:30:19.999 --> 00:30:22.699 and my sister, like we're the first generation on both sides of it. 00:30:23.054 --> 00:30:26.864 Our family, like our generation to really grow up mesh in the white world. 00:30:26.894 --> 00:30:27.584 You know what I mean? 00:30:27.794 --> 00:30:31.754 Like, and so like, I can literally see the bullshit because it's in 00:30:31.754 --> 00:30:33.464 front of me all the time, you know? 00:30:33.674 --> 00:30:36.074 Like they were like why? 00:30:36.164 --> 00:30:41.279 And like, And before we had the vocabulary and like the access of 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.729 the internet to disseminate all this information, you know, you, 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:46.709 you were just in your community. 00:30:46.709 --> 00:30:52.199 And I imagine you're just like, how, how the confusion of like, is it white people? 00:30:52.199 --> 00:30:54.239 If they're no white people here, you know what I mean? 00:30:54.659 --> 00:30:57.239 But like whiteness operates in every room, you know? 00:30:57.454 --> 00:31:00.334 It's just like, thinking about like, for most of us are sort of so many 00:31:00.334 --> 00:31:03.874 of us and including like children who have immigrant parents like me, 00:31:03.874 --> 00:31:07.054 like the only language we have is the language of our captors, you know? 00:31:07.294 --> 00:31:11.974 And I feel like once a month I am seeing a, like, article about like, 00:31:12.124 --> 00:31:15.454 like 30 words you didn't know were racist, but were, you know what I mean? 00:31:15.604 --> 00:31:18.874 And this is the only language we have to take care of ourselves, you know? 00:31:19.234 --> 00:31:19.654 And. 00:31:20.009 --> 00:31:23.009 Like, and, and it's, it's built to dehumanize us. 00:31:23.009 --> 00:31:27.329 It's built to, you know, like, there's always, there's like a, that, like he 00:31:27.329 --> 00:31:33.119 didn't Malcolm X where like, um, we're, uh, Denzel Washington's like I'm reading 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.789 the dictionary and he looks up black and he's just like, know, like everybody 00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:42.499 just like black men meet like black men, dark evil me, you know, like it was just 00:31:42.499 --> 00:31:47.539 like, yeah, this country demonizes us in every aspect, including the language. 00:31:47.569 --> 00:31:48.019 Yeah. 00:31:48.349 --> 00:31:48.829 That's something. 00:31:49.274 --> 00:31:50.384 I'm sorry, Mark. 00:31:50.384 --> 00:31:54.494 Did you have any you're you're doing great. 00:31:56.804 --> 00:32:00.854 Well, I mean, they speaking to the importance, I was telling my homie the 00:32:00.854 --> 00:32:06.184 other day, I was like, I both love and hate words because, um, like, you know, 00:32:06.214 --> 00:32:09.154 even in the text message, I'm like, I'm not trying to come off to this. 00:32:09.304 --> 00:32:13.084 And there's like studies about, like, I haven't been able to remove the 00:32:13.084 --> 00:32:17.794 exclamation points from my, um, emails, because I don't want to seem rude. 00:32:18.304 --> 00:32:18.624 Right. 00:32:18.644 --> 00:32:19.024 Right. 00:32:19.084 --> 00:32:25.294 Like, you know, so like, I mean, thinking about thinking about the. 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:32.159 This being the only language that we have, um, and how, like we usurped 00:32:32.159 --> 00:32:37.349 it, like, how are, how are we like fully subverting this language? 00:32:37.379 --> 00:32:41.129 Because I felt like throughout your, your article, the images, 00:32:41.159 --> 00:32:44.429 some of the juxtaposition I found between, you know, some of the ways 00:32:44.429 --> 00:32:47.519 that you were like describing the church, like a yawning woman, like. 00:32:47.999 --> 00:32:51.479 That those, some of those different, the ways that you use language, I 00:32:51.479 --> 00:32:56.159 was like, yes, like this is fully, uh, this is fully, uh, you know, a 00:32:56.159 --> 00:32:59.309 slap in the face to the white man, like all the way through and through 00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:05.699 like, but not only, not only that, but like how, how do you see what you're 00:33:05.699 --> 00:33:09.119 doing as, you know, a way to kind of. 00:33:10.169 --> 00:33:14.549 Not be not like, Oh, anybody, anything, I guess I'm just trying to ask, like how 00:33:14.549 --> 00:33:16.949 you use writing as subversion, basically. 00:33:16.949 --> 00:33:19.439 Like, do you, you're writing a subversion. 00:33:20.219 --> 00:33:23.579 Well, like, you know, Zora, Neale, Hurston wrote this thing called the 00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:25.319 characteristics of Negro expression. 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:25.679 Right. 00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:31.589 And like one of the things it talked about, like the way black people just take 00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:37.679 language and like we remix everything, sound, language, clothing, food, right. 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:43.499 And so like, even this, like, like everything ugly in this country, we 00:33:43.499 --> 00:33:45.479 have made beautiful, you know, and. 00:33:45.909 --> 00:33:50.739 That like that, like that, because like, we can have Fox the Fox, you 00:33:50.739 --> 00:33:54.549 know, like, um, this, like, if, like, I don't know if you're familiar with, 00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:58.389 uh, like the tradition, like the history of my cake walking at like, 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:04.029 like an enslavement, like, um, like I re like I'm working on another project 00:34:04.029 --> 00:34:05.169 where I was like, researching this. 00:34:05.169 --> 00:34:08.474 So like an enslavement cake walking, like, um, Like slaves 00:34:08.504 --> 00:34:12.494 people, they would literally like, like, they're like a slave bass. 00:34:12.784 --> 00:34:16.454 Bachelors would like give them like some, like raggly white looking people's 00:34:16.454 --> 00:34:17.984 clothing, but so it's above their station. 00:34:18.014 --> 00:34:21.584 They were literally just like, like walk around as though there are white people. 00:34:21.584 --> 00:34:24.794 So just like very, just like, like exaggerated movements of 00:34:24.794 --> 00:34:25.964 just like being very horny. 00:34:25.964 --> 00:34:26.324 Right. 00:34:27.314 --> 00:34:32.414 They were mocking, uh, they were mocking white, they're white slave masters, but 00:34:32.414 --> 00:34:36.104 they're white slave masters thought it was like, didn't realize it was being mocked. 00:34:36.134 --> 00:34:38.204 They just think we're getting a kick out of like black 00:34:38.204 --> 00:34:39.494 people pretending to be human. 00:34:39.494 --> 00:34:39.794 Right. 00:34:39.824 --> 00:34:40.244 Wow. 00:34:40.274 --> 00:34:44.834 And like subversion of that because black, because enslaved people 00:34:44.834 --> 00:34:46.724 were allowed no private space. 00:34:46.844 --> 00:34:48.134 So they made it in public. 00:34:48.404 --> 00:34:49.274 You know what I mean? 00:34:49.364 --> 00:34:55.209 And, and in a way to be like, That like you, it comes to all sorts of just like 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:59.199 putting out the lack of humanity of this, of their, of their captors, you 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:03.524 know, like you think we don't have the humanity, but like, You're the one who 00:35:03.524 --> 00:35:09.704 does it a little side tangent, but, um, but like a fun fact is like, you know, 00:35:10.304 --> 00:35:13.094 so when you think that you don't remember fresh Prince of Bel-Air, so, you know, 00:35:13.094 --> 00:35:15.494 Carlton's dance the Carlton, right? 00:35:15.584 --> 00:35:21.554 So they like, uh, they asked like, there's like Carlton, like he like 00:35:21.554 --> 00:35:26.629 the actual actor, um, like made up that dance and he said that, um, That 00:35:26.629 --> 00:35:29.119 like, he was just thinking of the widest stance he could come up with. 00:35:29.419 --> 00:35:33.379 And it was, um, it was a cross between like this, uh, Courtney Cox 00:35:33.409 --> 00:35:37.459 and Bruce Springsteen, like the song that like where they're dancing. 00:35:37.699 --> 00:35:43.249 Um, and like, uh, and like an Eddie Murphy skit, but the character of Carlton. 00:35:43.459 --> 00:35:45.919 Do you know who it's based on, who's named after who. 00:35:46.544 --> 00:35:49.604 That was the, the, the show carers are white people and they named 00:35:49.604 --> 00:35:51.014 it after their friend Carlton. 00:35:51.014 --> 00:35:53.504 Who's a show creator of lost what? 00:35:53.504 --> 00:35:54.584 Like, yes. 00:35:54.644 --> 00:35:55.814 So this white guy, right? 00:35:55.934 --> 00:35:59.894 So the subversion, so the, to connect the points of subversion, is 00:35:59.894 --> 00:36:04.694 that like the, the joke of Carlton banks is that, that like for these 00:36:04.694 --> 00:36:09.524 white show creators, is this like imagining a, a black boy, so rich. 00:36:09.584 --> 00:36:13.364 So well-spoken, there had to be a ghost of a white man inside of 00:36:13.364 --> 00:36:15.554 him and then the actor, right. 00:36:15.669 --> 00:36:19.149 Comes, and then actually subverts that by being like, no I'm mocking 00:36:19.149 --> 00:36:20.769 whiteness, you know what I mean? 00:36:20.949 --> 00:36:25.059 And so that's what I mean, like black people remix, every single thing, 00:36:25.059 --> 00:36:28.689 you know, that like, there's like nothing that this country can own 00:36:28.689 --> 00:36:31.509 without us, because there's nothing that built without us, you know? 00:36:31.959 --> 00:36:36.719 And so I think that like, um, I think the same thing with, with language that 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:41.729 like, even that, like you have given us this thing that can be so dangerous 00:36:41.729 --> 00:36:45.869 and so ugly and like, and like, we are like weird, like Portman portmanteau, 00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:47.579 in words, we're pushing things together. 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.759 We're just like adding like some verbs on things right now. 00:36:51.134 --> 00:36:56.384 And, and then the whole country copies it, you know, like, you know, so it's like, 00:36:56.504 --> 00:36:59.144 I think that like language is our power. 00:36:59.144 --> 00:37:01.184 That's why they try to steal our narrative. 00:37:01.394 --> 00:37:01.634 Yeah. 00:37:02.074 --> 00:37:06.544 I mean, specifically thinking about people, you know, how was they try to keep 00:37:06.544 --> 00:37:08.254 it away from us for so long people, like. 00:37:08.624 --> 00:37:11.754 Who are enslaved going now and reading in the dark and like risking their 00:37:11.754 --> 00:37:13.494 lives to be able to find these words. 00:37:13.524 --> 00:37:17.334 Um, one of the things that I keep coming back to kind of speaking about 00:37:17.334 --> 00:37:21.774 subversion in your language, there's one of the quotes is I think it 00:37:21.774 --> 00:37:27.174 was, um, he chew chewing rage, like, like could two week chewing, like 00:37:27.174 --> 00:37:29.304 cut and cutting something cows too. 00:37:29.304 --> 00:37:29.634 Right. 00:37:30.284 --> 00:37:31.734 Or something like, yeah. 00:37:31.894 --> 00:37:32.294 Yeah. 00:37:33.224 --> 00:37:38.504 Just like juxtaposing, like how human, like rages and, and kind of that 00:37:38.504 --> 00:37:40.904 could like animalistic, like wear out. 00:37:41.294 --> 00:37:45.314 Whereas white people would see us as, you know, only human. 00:37:45.314 --> 00:37:48.044 If we're able to forgive such sin, we're only flies. 00:37:48.044 --> 00:37:51.284 If we can do that, this kind of animalistic behavior of kind of 00:37:51.284 --> 00:37:54.104 chewing on that could and still like. 00:37:54.644 --> 00:37:57.974 For me, if you hold onto your rage and deal with it, well, like that's 00:37:57.974 --> 00:37:59.174 the human part, you know what I mean? 00:37:59.174 --> 00:38:00.594 Like that exactly. 00:38:01.214 --> 00:38:05.954 That's the complexity of the human brain and the beauty of, of, you know, 00:38:05.954 --> 00:38:07.334 working through your own emotions. 00:38:07.334 --> 00:38:12.824 But I just think it's so interesting how, um, how, especially here, you're able 00:38:12.824 --> 00:38:17.114 to use to use that language kind of in a subversive way, like all the time, like 00:38:17.114 --> 00:38:22.844 page after page, like idea after idea, even thinking about, um, Even thinking 00:38:22.844 --> 00:38:27.494 about the point at which you, your dad tells you that aunt Sarah actually saved 00:38:27.494 --> 00:38:32.504 you guys from being at the grandpa's house or how, you know, at the family, 00:38:32.534 --> 00:38:36.794 um, gatherings, there was no alcohol, but people would still kind of laugh 00:38:36.794 --> 00:38:38.864 at jokes of people who had abused that. 00:38:39.614 --> 00:38:42.014 And I'm just kind of wondering about this, like. 00:38:42.929 --> 00:38:44.759 Existing in mixed company, right. 00:38:44.759 --> 00:38:49.169 Existing with abusers and folks who have been abused first for me, like 00:38:49.169 --> 00:38:52.579 specifically speaking, like white people, you know, like we know that we need 00:38:52.579 --> 00:38:56.059 to know with that relationship, but I always want to bring it back to like 00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:57.679 the relationship we have with our own. 00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:03.649 Like, is there something that you think is a necessity in not necessarily 00:39:03.649 --> 00:39:06.379 mending, like, I mean, I don't necessarily think we have to mend 00:39:06.379 --> 00:39:10.639 all the relationships with the media, but is there something that you find. 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:17.339 Um, necessary in at least like the, the, um, the naming of, 00:39:17.449 --> 00:39:18.719 of abuse, like in families. 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:23.429 Is there something that you see as necessary and in the, um, like 00:39:23.429 --> 00:39:26.429 making it known, because I know one of the points you made is like we're 00:39:26.429 --> 00:39:30.359 expected to give forgiveness without any harm being, things like that. 00:39:30.359 --> 00:39:34.079 Like, is there anything you see as, as like a step in changing that. 00:39:34.799 --> 00:39:37.559 Well, I mean, I think that, like, if you can't name it, you can't stop it. 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:39.839 You can't even talk about it being there, you know? 00:39:40.109 --> 00:39:44.429 And I think like, that's like the, like the first issue, like, you can't 00:39:44.429 --> 00:39:45.929 find something that you can't name. 00:39:46.259 --> 00:39:50.099 And I think that like if, to not name, what happens to someone is 00:39:50.099 --> 00:39:51.569 to say that they're not human. 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:52.229 You know what I mean? 00:39:52.379 --> 00:39:56.009 I think this is why like, like, you know, even the truth and reconciliation 00:39:56.579 --> 00:40:01.049 commissions are so problematic, you know, because like, you know, 00:40:02.014 --> 00:40:04.474 It's just like, they, they stop. 00:40:04.504 --> 00:40:08.434 They think that that, uh, stage is the same thing as justice, right? 00:40:08.434 --> 00:40:11.674 Because like, we're like in America, we still don't know what justice 00:40:11.704 --> 00:40:14.764 is or it looks like, you know, this is a complicated work of abolition, 00:40:14.764 --> 00:40:17.314 you know, we have to get, because that's what people first have to say. 00:40:17.314 --> 00:40:22.434 Like what about the rapists let's deal with, tell me that you can't stand your 00:40:22.434 --> 00:40:28.874 neighbor, but, you know, and, um, and so I think that like, there is like, This 00:40:28.894 --> 00:40:35.724 like deep, deep necessity to name and say that like one, like I will witness you 00:40:35.814 --> 00:40:41.424 and to, to say that like that there are so many ways to be human that like, tell 00:40:41.454 --> 00:40:43.704 me how your humanity has been denied. 00:40:44.004 --> 00:40:48.054 Because like, you know, when you think about like, you know, like 00:40:48.054 --> 00:40:50.904 what is happening now with COVID where we think about all the 00:40:50.904 --> 00:40:52.404 ways people, humanity is being. 00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:56.069 Like violated, not just through like lack of medical care and like 00:40:56.069 --> 00:40:57.539 a lack of government infrastructure. 00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.539 And, but like, from like a lack of being able to mourn their loved ones 00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.959 collectively know they're like, that is, that is humiliating, you know, the 00:41:03.959 --> 00:41:08.279 way people are having to, to mourn right now, but also like the lack of just like. 00:41:08.549 --> 00:41:13.079 That like it interferes with like students access to education. 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:13.499 Right. 00:41:13.649 --> 00:41:18.359 And so that is just like, you know, and that is fundamental to like a historical 00:41:18.359 --> 00:41:19.859 connection to like enslaves real life. 00:41:19.889 --> 00:41:21.029 That's the first thing. 00:41:21.209 --> 00:41:22.829 Like, they did not want us to be educated. 00:41:22.829 --> 00:41:26.909 And so like the, the desire and the need to learn the want for it. 00:41:26.909 --> 00:41:28.439 Like that is part of our humanity. 00:41:28.439 --> 00:41:28.829 Right. 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:33.029 And so I think that like, if you don't, if you don't name like 00:41:33.029 --> 00:41:35.099 the harms, you also don't know. 00:41:35.319 --> 00:41:37.989 You also don't understand like what it means to be human in this 00:41:37.989 --> 00:41:40.479 particular, the time that we are in. 00:41:40.479 --> 00:41:46.424 And I think that like, um, that like when you don't name it, You assign a shame 00:41:46.484 --> 00:41:51.344 to the victim, you know, because like there's nothing, this country hates more 00:41:51.344 --> 00:41:54.764 than victims, you know, like people, like, I don't want to be a victim, you know? 00:41:55.094 --> 00:41:58.724 And it's just like, it's worse to be a victim in this country than it 00:41:58.724 --> 00:42:00.764 is to be a perpetrator, you know? 00:42:01.004 --> 00:42:01.604 Wow. 00:42:01.634 --> 00:42:02.834 It was wild to me. 00:42:02.864 --> 00:42:03.194 Wow. 00:42:03.224 --> 00:42:07.784 And so I think that like naming is the only way to place the shame 00:42:07.784 --> 00:42:10.064 where it belongs, because like, you know, there's that saying? 00:42:10.064 --> 00:42:11.024 Like, why do men rape? 00:42:11.594 --> 00:42:12.464 Because they can. 00:42:12.789 --> 00:42:13.809 Because they can get away with it. 00:42:13.809 --> 00:42:14.169 Right. 00:42:14.349 --> 00:42:18.339 And so like, you know, abolition worked as it looked like putting everyone in prison. 00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:24.129 It looks like in a situation where it says, if you rape whoever you rape, the 00:42:24.129 --> 00:42:25.959 community will not let you stay here. 00:42:25.959 --> 00:42:30.049 You will not meet, or you will have to do something like to, to 00:42:30.069 --> 00:42:33.309 a tone, you know, because it's like putting people in prison. 00:42:33.339 --> 00:42:38.954 Isn't, doesn't give justice either, especially when like, How like, no, 00:42:38.954 --> 00:42:41.704 like, yes, it's like, it's this, this is like, it's complicated because 00:42:41.804 --> 00:42:46.184 yes, we are all responsible for our actions, but to act like we are, we 00:42:46.484 --> 00:42:49.574 live in or made in silos is racist. 00:42:49.874 --> 00:42:50.354 You know what I mean? 00:42:50.414 --> 00:42:50.704 Right. 00:42:50.714 --> 00:42:53.324 That like, there is so much entangled to what this country 00:42:53.324 --> 00:42:55.934 has done to black people. 00:42:55.934 --> 00:43:00.104 I mean, like literally the, one of the work that every black person 00:43:00.104 --> 00:43:04.304 has to do is, is like find a place where they can love blackness. 00:43:05.314 --> 00:43:08.434 Because like, you literally aren't allowed to from birth, you know what I mean? 00:43:08.674 --> 00:43:11.734 And so, and so, like, that's what I mean, like I know exactly about your 00:43:11.734 --> 00:43:14.854 childhood, you know, like you were a lot of love blackness, you know what I mean? 00:43:15.094 --> 00:43:18.244 Like, just from what I see in the background and like, and like, 00:43:18.344 --> 00:43:19.684 that's like the work, you know? 00:43:19.794 --> 00:43:20.274 Yeah. 00:43:20.454 --> 00:43:25.074 I mean, it seems, and it is three 54, just so everybody knows. 00:43:25.284 --> 00:43:26.724 Um, but kind of like. 00:43:27.209 --> 00:43:30.479 I mean, I definitely want to connect it to, um, your work on 00:43:30.479 --> 00:43:32.999 American that has just come out. 00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:34.769 Um, my copy should be arriving. 00:43:34.949 --> 00:43:37.649 I put, I got it on my phone, but I was like, I'm not reading this on my phone. 00:43:37.649 --> 00:43:38.129 So my car. 00:43:39.299 --> 00:43:42.659 Tomorrow it's, you know, I should be able to dig into it over the weekend. 00:43:43.529 --> 00:43:48.029 Um, I just wanted to kind of connect some of the, some of those different ideas, 00:43:48.029 --> 00:43:51.689 just like having, having to do with what you were kind of just saying, like the 00:43:51.689 --> 00:43:57.959 ways that we're not even able to name, um, or, or spaces not created to name or, or 00:43:57.959 --> 00:44:02.759 people thinking that naming as some kind of offense or attack, um, specifically, 00:44:02.759 --> 00:44:04.949 I'm thinking of examples of like people. 00:44:05.354 --> 00:44:08.894 You know, like, and not just white people, like people in general who 00:44:08.894 --> 00:44:13.004 have absorbed whiteness feeling that they are entitled to other people's 00:44:13.004 --> 00:44:18.374 kindness at work, their smiles, their, you know, happy moods, they're, you 00:44:18.374 --> 00:44:22.364 know, friendly conversation, you know, the deep, intimate parts of people. 00:44:22.634 --> 00:44:24.514 Um, folks thinking that they're entitled to those. 00:44:24.769 --> 00:44:27.349 In the, in the context of all of this different stuff, we 00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:28.939 also still have to perform. 00:44:29.329 --> 00:44:32.929 Um, I just wanted to ask you a little thing in this country, 00:44:33.249 --> 00:44:36.969 everything that is possible for us to make it belongs to them right. 00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:37.389 In our free. 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:43.209 And that's why people can't look over their shoulder and find a hero, you know? 00:44:43.209 --> 00:44:46.689 And so that is why they're afraid of history because like every single 00:44:46.689 --> 00:44:52.629 generation of white Venice has tried to destroy entire groups of people, you know, 00:44:52.629 --> 00:44:57.254 and like, And like, and like, people don't understand, like that is so crushing. 00:44:57.254 --> 00:44:58.244 So this is what we say. 00:44:58.274 --> 00:45:03.284 We mean, when we say that, like, racism is toxic for whiteness, you know what I mean? 00:45:03.494 --> 00:45:08.414 Because like, there is literally no way if racism didn't exist, 00:45:08.444 --> 00:45:10.994 that COVID would be ha happening like this, you know what I mean? 00:45:11.084 --> 00:45:11.324 Yeah. 00:45:11.324 --> 00:45:16.574 But like, it just corrodes them and like, people don't recognize that, but 00:45:16.574 --> 00:45:19.784 like, you know, to your question about like, I'm an American, like, so like 00:45:19.844 --> 00:45:26.129 an, um, an American is, um, Is about like, if my mom died when I was 19. 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:32.099 And so it's, um, it's kind of about, you know, grappling with like, what does it 00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:38.369 mean to grieve like a dark skin, Nigerian Muslim woman in a country that has. 00:45:38.649 --> 00:45:43.239 Painted all those things, the enemy, you know, because like, you know, I 00:45:43.329 --> 00:45:45.909 like my mom died shortly after nine 11. 00:45:45.909 --> 00:45:50.409 When, you know, obviously like the war on terror has already been building, um, 00:45:50.619 --> 00:45:57.309 before that and painting like Islam as like this toxic space, but like, you know, 00:45:57.489 --> 00:46:02.739 through my mother's death and through especially being so close to, um, nine 11, 00:46:02.739 --> 00:46:05.919 it just showed me this country can make a weapon out of anything you have in prayer. 00:46:06.284 --> 00:46:12.344 You know, and, and so it was really trying to like, like, and people don't understand 00:46:12.344 --> 00:46:16.544 that like, heartbreak is a political condition, you know, because like, how 00:46:16.544 --> 00:46:22.724 do you, how do you grieve someone who everyone is assigning with as terrorists? 00:46:22.724 --> 00:46:25.844 Like, you know, cause I remember like, you know, when I w when we 00:46:25.844 --> 00:46:28.094 moved to South Carolina, I went from like, in an all girls white. 00:46:28.394 --> 00:46:31.364 Like a school to a school that was majority black. 00:46:31.364 --> 00:46:31.784 Right. 00:46:31.994 --> 00:46:36.464 Um, and I remember even my black classmates were just like, we're going 00:46:36.464 --> 00:46:40.334 to get those, like, you know, those terrorists, like, and like every Muslim 00:46:40.334 --> 00:46:44.144 became a terrorist and it just like, and then what I'm just like, so even with the 00:46:44.144 --> 00:46:47.774 people that look like me, like my mother is still the enemy and she's half of me, 00:46:47.774 --> 00:46:55.294 you know, so it's really, and the thing is just like, you it's, it's so much easier. 00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:58.829 Did make enemies out of people when you live in the enemies position. 00:46:58.829 --> 00:46:59.099 Right. 00:46:59.099 --> 00:47:01.229 Because like you want relief, you know? 00:47:01.229 --> 00:47:06.359 And so, and so it was just like, what, what now? 00:47:06.389 --> 00:47:11.849 You know, and, and trying to figure out like how, just to untangle, like 00:47:11.879 --> 00:47:15.119 the sadness with the fear, with the surveillance, you know, because like, 00:47:15.329 --> 00:47:20.069 I also like, like, it's just like, what would people do if like, if 00:47:20.069 --> 00:47:23.459 like, if more people knew that she was Muslim, you know what I mean? 00:47:24.494 --> 00:47:24.944 Yeah. 00:47:25.784 --> 00:47:30.194 The, um, the last question I have, and I have to admit, it's kind of like a 00:47:30.194 --> 00:47:36.464 selfish question because, um, you know, just thinking about writing, like as an 00:47:36.464 --> 00:47:40.844 art form with like poetry and prose and stuff, like, I'm just wondering, like 00:47:40.994 --> 00:47:45.464 what, not even, not even like, what do you do to get into the writing game? 00:47:45.494 --> 00:47:49.304 Like what, what are you, what did you find as important to your practice to make? 00:47:49.634 --> 00:47:53.984 Um, Writing a motive expression that you took super seriously? 00:47:53.984 --> 00:47:56.954 Like what, what are some of the things that you have done to, to make 00:47:56.954 --> 00:47:58.634 this a sustainable practice for you? 00:47:59.674 --> 00:48:02.254 I mean like one, it was the only thing I've ever been good at. 00:48:03.214 --> 00:48:04.474 Like, you know, there's that. 00:48:04.474 --> 00:48:08.294 And I think that like, um, Like, you know, my father's a visual artist. 00:48:08.294 --> 00:48:13.124 Like he like was taught like in like, uh, MFA programs my entire life. 00:48:13.154 --> 00:48:15.974 And so I am lucky in that. 00:48:15.974 --> 00:48:18.614 Like, I never had anyone trying to talk me out of it. 00:48:18.614 --> 00:48:21.824 Like, my dad was like super excited when I said, I want to get MFM poetry 00:48:21.824 --> 00:48:25.184 gave me no warnings about what that was actually going to look like, you know, 00:48:25.184 --> 00:48:26.864 so good and bad, you know what I mean? 00:48:27.344 --> 00:48:30.824 And, um, but like I never had any romantic. 00:48:30.824 --> 00:48:30.884 Yeah. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:33.284 Notions that it wasn't going to be hard. 00:48:33.434 --> 00:48:36.164 Like we weren't rich, you know, we struggled, like there 00:48:36.164 --> 00:48:39.074 were a years, like we were in scholarships for like the albums. 00:48:39.074 --> 00:48:42.254 And so I didn't have any romantic notions of it. 00:48:42.254 --> 00:48:47.924 But I think like for, for me, like, you know, reading is the most important thing 00:48:47.924 --> 00:48:51.014 because like, people always say like reading is a solitary activity, which 00:48:51.014 --> 00:48:52.664 I don't understand because like, yeah. 00:48:52.964 --> 00:48:56.594 The first time you are, you experienced a book at someone is reading to you 00:48:56.594 --> 00:49:00.224 so you can never, ever be alone again, because you spent your first years of 00:49:00.224 --> 00:49:01.844 your life with someone else's voice. 00:49:01.844 --> 00:49:06.004 And when you are reading, you hear, you hear your voice, you hear a voice, right. 00:49:06.014 --> 00:49:07.184 You disappear into it. 00:49:07.484 --> 00:49:10.784 And so like, you know, like there's like the trick that people say, if you can't 00:49:10.784 --> 00:49:11.804 write it because you're not reading it. 00:49:12.274 --> 00:49:12.514 Yeah. 00:49:12.544 --> 00:49:15.634 And because like, you really are having a conversation because just like. 00:49:15.919 --> 00:49:18.619 Also, and I, and like, I mean, from fiction to non-fiction, but also 00:49:18.619 --> 00:49:22.309 theory, I think it's so deeply important that people are reading like the work 00:49:22.309 --> 00:49:26.329 of like of black scholars or, but especially like black trans activist 00:49:26.329 --> 00:49:29.899 and disability justice activist, because like the work has been done. 00:49:29.899 --> 00:49:33.379 And so much of like, what we do has just been reinventing the wheel 00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:37.069 because we have, because even within our marginalization, there are people 00:49:37.069 --> 00:49:40.239 that are marginalized because even from the civil rights era, they 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:42.219 were pushing out black trans women. 00:49:42.219 --> 00:49:42.609 You know what I mean? 00:49:42.789 --> 00:49:43.179 Right. 00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:43.629 Yeah. 00:49:43.879 --> 00:49:48.079 So I think really like reaching back from the people who have done the 00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:52.959 work, because like, you know, the more like, like activists that I've read 00:49:52.959 --> 00:49:57.889 it helps me remember my own life from the outside of a white gaze, you know? 00:49:58.189 --> 00:50:00.229 And like, that's what was going on, you know? 00:50:00.229 --> 00:50:02.749 I mean, like everyone should be reading Angela Davis, you know, 00:50:02.929 --> 00:50:05.629 just like, I just can't even trust people who have it, you know? 00:50:05.629 --> 00:50:08.779 Cause it's like, you don't know, you can't see yourself. 00:50:09.049 --> 00:50:14.189 Um, so I think that, but also just like, um, Just like making sure I'm 00:50:14.189 --> 00:50:16.529 not one of those people who like, writes, like there's a time to 00:50:16.529 --> 00:50:18.509 write every day, like in that way. 00:50:18.509 --> 00:50:19.979 But like, I wake up really early. 00:50:19.979 --> 00:50:23.139 And so like, I tend to write in the morning or, but like, but also 00:50:23.279 --> 00:50:26.249 the, I think the key is just, just to find something that you want to 00:50:26.249 --> 00:50:29.999 write about, like, You need to find whatever your obsessions are, because 00:50:29.999 --> 00:50:32.999 once you find your obsession, you won't be able to keep yourself away. 00:50:33.299 --> 00:50:36.239 You know, like even when I'm tired, I'm just like trying to get back to that 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.959 page, you know, because like my mind is racing, but like also I think going 00:50:39.989 --> 00:50:43.559 easy on yourself because like, I think thinking about what you're writing is 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.509 writing, reading counts as writing to me. 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:48.359 And like, sometimes I just like, I'm just like texting myself a sentence that 00:50:48.359 --> 00:50:50.639 I think about and like nine on that. 00:50:50.879 --> 00:50:54.509 And I think, um, but yeah, I think diversifying like the kind of culture 00:50:54.509 --> 00:50:59.399 that you get, I think like, um, Part of like, you know, my, like why I'm 00:50:59.399 --> 00:51:04.349 able to write the way I do is because like, I like my, I had a different type 00:51:04.349 --> 00:51:08.459 of witness to witness, like my father, like I saw the world, but I also saw 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:12.209 my father's interpretation of the world because my father like only paid the 00:51:12.209 --> 00:51:13.829 black and African people, you know? 00:51:14.069 --> 00:51:16.259 And like growing up, he illustrated children's books. 00:51:16.259 --> 00:51:17.159 He use us as models. 00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:18.959 So like, we, like, we saw it. 00:51:18.989 --> 00:51:21.299 We literally saw ourselves literally reflected back. 00:51:21.629 --> 00:51:26.069 Um, but like, you know, And, and like, you know, only white people had babysitters. 00:51:26.069 --> 00:51:27.389 So like we were taken everywhere. 00:51:27.629 --> 00:51:32.549 And so taking to art galleries, taking to music shows like, like 00:51:32.549 --> 00:51:35.699 symphonies, you know, like we were literally taken to all that. 00:51:35.699 --> 00:51:39.989 So to really see that there are so many different ways to know the world, 00:51:40.229 --> 00:51:43.019 because I think it was one of the, like kind of the, the difficulties of. 00:51:43.329 --> 00:51:43.769 Right here. 00:51:43.769 --> 00:51:45.489 It's like, how am I going to say something new? 00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:45.939 Right. 00:51:45.939 --> 00:51:50.979 You know that, like, you gotta find a way to see the world outside of the way 00:51:50.979 --> 00:51:55.869 you've seen it, you know, or like, or to see, or to see it from somebody else's 00:51:55.899 --> 00:52:00.339 like lens, you know, because like, you know, Angela, that's what Angela Davis, 00:52:00.429 --> 00:52:03.969 her focus on prisons is because we look at prison so we can understand the whole, 00:52:04.089 --> 00:52:08.549 you know, and like when you lift up like the people who are the most marginalized. 00:52:08.714 --> 00:52:10.424 Everybody comes up, you know? 00:52:10.754 --> 00:52:12.974 And so like if all black people were taking care of them in 00:52:12.974 --> 00:52:16.654 this country, everybody would be taken care of just lavish living. 00:52:16.654 --> 00:52:19.114 Good, like mentioned. 00:52:20.344 --> 00:52:23.014 Is there anyone besides Angela Davis that you're reading right now 00:52:23.014 --> 00:52:24.124 that you're super stressed about? 00:52:24.629 --> 00:52:25.619 Yeah, let's see. 00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:25.739 Yeah. 00:52:25.769 --> 00:52:31.219 Cause I'm reading like so much for, um, just recently I think, um, one 00:52:31.219 --> 00:52:34.399 book that's really good then reinfor research, it's called ethical loneliness. 00:52:34.429 --> 00:52:36.739 It's like, um, the injustice of not being heard. 00:52:36.739 --> 00:52:38.719 And so like she defines this term. 00:52:38.759 --> 00:52:42.329 It's like, it's like, um, It's like essentially like being abandoned by 00:52:42.329 --> 00:52:44.069 society and like the pain of that. 00:52:44.069 --> 00:52:47.489 And it's like, you know, people who have been like, uh, victims of torture, 00:52:47.549 --> 00:52:52.799 um, or like grave crimes, and then, and then being released into the society who 00:52:52.799 --> 00:52:57.149 doesn't seek justice for you, you know, you never know that it can't happen again. 00:52:57.389 --> 00:52:57.809 Right. 00:52:57.959 --> 00:52:59.819 Um, so I think like that's a really good book. 00:52:59.849 --> 00:53:05.324 Um, This book, war is a force that gives us meaning is incredible. 00:53:05.354 --> 00:53:05.834 Wow. 00:53:06.404 --> 00:53:07.214 That was incredible. 00:53:07.214 --> 00:53:11.054 But like, it talks about like, you know, like war is a culture is fashionable. 00:53:11.054 --> 00:53:14.564 It's like literally like where we get our, all of our meaning from in 00:53:14.564 --> 00:53:16.844 this, in this like, In this world. 00:53:16.844 --> 00:53:20.714 Cause you know, people talk about like, you know, we do this in war time, but 00:53:20.984 --> 00:53:23.474 the, in the history of the world has been like, what, 19 years where there 00:53:23.474 --> 00:53:25.034 hasn't been war or something like that. 00:53:25.364 --> 00:53:26.504 Like, yeah. 00:53:26.654 --> 00:53:30.794 And so like if things are permissible only in war time, but if we're always in war 00:53:30.794 --> 00:53:33.014 time, everything permissible, you know? 00:53:33.104 --> 00:53:35.714 Um, so that book is really good. 00:53:36.074 --> 00:53:40.704 Um, Like, uh, I think like, uh, there's this poetry, Oh, here it is. 00:53:40.944 --> 00:53:41.904 Build yourself a boat. 00:53:43.514 --> 00:53:47.054 It's so, so it's like, it's essentially perfect. 00:53:47.414 --> 00:53:48.044 You know what I mean? 00:53:48.134 --> 00:53:50.044 Like, it's really good. 00:53:50.054 --> 00:53:56.109 But even though some of the poems are just like this long, they took me like, Yeah. 00:53:56.559 --> 00:54:02.299 Just be like, what do you like to, um, and then I think another book 00:54:02.299 --> 00:54:05.269 is like, there's this book, uh, disability visibility by Alice Wong. 00:54:05.299 --> 00:54:09.049 It's an edited collection, um, of, uh, disability, uh, 00:54:09.049 --> 00:54:10.729 writers, like writing about that. 00:54:10.729 --> 00:54:11.149 And then. 00:54:11.594 --> 00:54:16.214 Like, uh, the, the new museum has a series of books that is so cool. 00:54:16.214 --> 00:54:17.834 And one of them is called trap door. 00:54:18.044 --> 00:54:22.874 It's just an anthology of, um, of a trans activist and writers, um, writing 00:54:22.874 --> 00:54:26.954 about like different things from like culture to like activism to media. 00:54:26.954 --> 00:54:30.254 And it's like, it just like is mind blowing from beginning to end. 00:54:30.464 --> 00:54:34.874 And like, you know, it was really is really when I started like diving into 00:54:34.874 --> 00:54:38.674 the work of disability, justice and trans activists that I was just like, Oh, fuck. 00:54:38.674 --> 00:54:39.454 This has all been done. 00:54:39.454 --> 00:54:40.894 We're literally just repeating their work. 00:54:40.924 --> 00:54:41.554 You know what I mean? 00:54:41.824 --> 00:54:45.544 I'm just like, and I'm just like, and what hooking assholes are we, you know, 00:54:45.574 --> 00:54:49.804 cause like, because right there that I think, cause that gets at the idea of 00:54:49.804 --> 00:54:53.044 ethical loneliness that like that, like you're fighting for yourself when people 00:54:53.044 --> 00:54:54.634 are acting like you're, you're not. 00:54:54.634 --> 00:54:57.354 And so then they're just like, then they have a revelation it's like, Just 00:54:57.354 --> 00:55:00.044 like when a white guy comes in after work and it just like, like in a work 00:55:00.044 --> 00:55:01.034 mean, he just said the same thing. 00:55:01.034 --> 00:55:04.004 You said you don't, everyone's just like Bob, 00:55:09.614 --> 00:55:10.214 if you get out. 00:55:10.454 --> 00:55:11.084 Wow. 00:55:11.414 --> 00:55:12.524 There's other things I'm reading. 00:55:12.914 --> 00:55:13.154 Wow. 00:55:13.444 --> 00:55:15.394 Thank you so much, man. 00:55:15.424 --> 00:55:19.984 I mean, I like, I really could just like keep going, but I know Mark, 00:55:19.984 --> 00:55:22.474 do you have any things that, sorry? 00:55:22.504 --> 00:55:23.704 I think it's after. 00:55:24.074 --> 00:55:30.164 Or the biggest thing is just a thank you so much, so generous with your time. 00:55:31.344 --> 00:55:33.504 Thank you for not giving up on me. 00:55:33.864 --> 00:55:34.014 No. 00:55:34.074 --> 00:55:38.214 Oh, the whole thing is just like being able to like, I mean, I did want to sort 00:55:38.214 --> 00:55:43.074 of step back a little bit, but like, this was just so amazing just to listen to you. 00:55:43.074 --> 00:55:46.314 And also Sarah, thank you so much also for your questions. 00:55:46.764 --> 00:55:51.794 Um, Yeah, this is really incredible because like the whole thing, especially 00:55:51.794 --> 00:55:54.100 like, like this whole purpose of reading. 00:55:54.160 --> 00:55:54.610 Right? 00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:55.080 Yeah. 00:55:55.110 --> 00:55:59.010 And I love how you just spoke to that too, because there's this whole debate about 00:55:59.010 --> 00:56:02.670 like what's reading really for, and when I try to sort of share like what article 00:56:02.670 --> 00:56:04.707 club is trying to do, it's like, Oh, cute. 00:56:04.707 --> 00:56:06.297 Like, that's a cute little thing that you're doing. 00:56:07.047 --> 00:56:09.707 We are doing, they're really doing stuff. 00:56:09.707 --> 00:56:10.067 Right. 00:56:10.097 --> 00:56:12.557 I mean like books change your life. 00:56:13.067 --> 00:56:13.487 Like, what do you mean? 00:56:13.997 --> 00:56:14.237 Like. 00:56:14.672 --> 00:56:19.352 We're literally we're this and kind of like Wars about story. 00:56:19.502 --> 00:56:20.072 You know what I mean? 00:56:20.132 --> 00:56:22.922 You've got to learn how you need to know how other people 00:56:22.922 --> 00:56:24.152 are telling stories about you. 00:56:24.617 --> 00:56:27.677 You know, and like it's a way to find your own life and your 00:56:27.677 --> 00:56:29.237 own people and your own story. 00:56:29.237 --> 00:56:31.727 And like, it's also a way to like, love yourself. 00:56:31.757 --> 00:56:32.177 Yeah. 00:56:32.477 --> 00:56:34.337 That's just ridiculous to me. 00:56:34.367 --> 00:56:34.847 Yeah. 00:56:35.377 --> 00:56:35.557 Yeah. 00:56:35.777 --> 00:56:36.167 Yeah. 00:56:36.324 --> 00:56:38.874 Well, thank you so much for doing this. 00:56:38.874 --> 00:56:41.484 Thank you so much for being part of article club. 00:56:41.754 --> 00:56:46.374 And I can't, I cannot wait to share this with, uh, the rest of the folks. 00:56:46.534 --> 00:56:46.984 Oh, my God. 00:56:47.014 --> 00:56:47.294 Thank you. 00:56:47.294 --> 00:56:48.094 And this is amazing. 00:56:48.094 --> 00:56:49.594 So you both keep in touch